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Caption transcript for Whose Land Is It?: “The View From ‘Palestine’” with Hanan Ashrawi, Part 2 (2/3)

• 00:09 BRETHREN, MY HEART'S DESIRE AND PRAYER TO GOD FOR ISRAEL IS THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.
• 00:15 THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JEW AND THE GENTILE.
• 00:18 FOR THE SAME LORD OVERALL IS RICH UNTO ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM.
• 00:24 ZOLA LEVITT PRESENTS
• 00:28 CONSIDERING THE TIMES AND SEASONS OF OUR WORLD TODAY, HERE'S ZOLA LEVITT.
• 00:34 SHALOM, HELLO AGAIN. WE'RE CONTINUING FROM LAST WEEK.
• 00:38 I THINK, A VERY INTERESTING AND EDUCATIONAL SORT OF PROGRAM.
• 00:43 ON OUR LAST ISRAEL TOUR WE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TRAVEL INTO RAMALLAH, IN THE WEST BANK,
• 00:48 WHICH HAS TURNED OUT TO BE THE DE FACTO PALESTINIAN CAPITAL, IF YOU WILL.
• 00:53 THAT'S WHERE ARAFAT'S HEADQUARTERS IS AND THAT'S WHERE WE ENCOUNTERED
• 00:57 WITH A PALESTINIAN FILM CREW WHO WERE VERY COURTEOUS AND PROFESSIONAL,
• 01:02 THEY TOOK US TO DR. HANAN ASHRAWI, WHO IS ONE OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY SPOKESPEOPLE.
• 01:08 SHE HAS RECENTLY APPEARED IN THE UNITED STATES AT UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO, I BELIEVE.
• 01:13 SHE HAS, BEFORE, BEEN A SPEAKER HERE.
• 01:15 SHE TAUGHT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA.
• 01:18 SHE GAVE US HER VIEW OF THE WHOLE CONTROVERSY GOING ON IN ISRAEL.
• 01:25 I LISTENED POLITELY. I DID NOT INTERRUPT OR ARGUE.
• 01:29 MUCH OF WHAT SHE SAID IS WORTH HEARING AND QUITE TRUTHFUL.
• 01:36 OTHER THINGS ARE MORE CONTROVERSIAL.
• 01:39 RATHER THAN BEING A SPOKESPERSON,
• 01:41 WE TURNED THIS FOOTAGE OVER TO 2 ARAB-CHRISTIAN EXPERTS THAT WE KNOW.
• 01:46 DR. ASHRAWI IS AN ARAB-CHRISTIAN AND HER PEER, DR. ERGUN CANER, IS AN ARAB-CHRISTIAN.
• 01:51 HE'S A PROFESSOR AT CRISWELL COLLEGE IN DALLAS.
• 01:54 THEN, JOSEPH FARAH, THE EDITOR OF WORLD NET DAILY,
• 01:57 A VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ARAB-AMERICAN CHRISTIAN.
• 02:01 DR. CANER WAS RAISED AS THE SON OF A MUEZZIN, AS A MUSLIM. HE THEN CONVERTED TO CHRIST.
• 02:09 JOSEPH FARAH WAS RAISED IN AN ARAB-CHRISTIAN FAMILY.
• 02:13 THEY DIFFER IN THAT RESPECT, BUT AT THIS POINT THEY ARE HER PEERS
• 02:17 AND THEY COMMENTED ON WHAT SHE SAID.
• 02:20 SO, NOW PICKING UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST WEEK,
• 02:24 WE'LL HEAR FROM DR.ASHRAWI AND THEN OUR COMMENTATORS.
• 02:29 I READ AN ARTICLE ABOUT YOU IN AN ANGLICAN MAGAZINE DESCRIBING YOUR CHRISTIAN TESTIMONY.
• 02:33 IT WAS EXCELLENT.ON THE MCNEIL/LEHRER REPORT YOU MADE A STATEMENT THAT WAS CURIOUS.
• 02:38 YOU SAID JESUS CHRIST WAS A PALESTINIAN PROPHET, BORN IN BETHLEHEM, IN MY COUNTRY.
• 02:43 I WONDERED ABOUT THAT.
• 02:46 WELL, OF COURSE HE WAS BORN JEWISH,
• 02:48 BUT HE WAS A PALESTINIAN BECAUSE HE WAS BORN IN PALESTINE.
• 02:50 THERE ARE STILL MANY JEWISH PALESTINIANS, OF COURSE,
• 02:54 BUT THOSE WHO CHOSE TO BE ISRAELI ARE ISRAELI JEWS.
• 02:59 THERE ARE MANY MOSTLY OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL WHO ARE PALESTINIAN-CHRISTIANS.
• 03:02 THERE ARE SOME WHO ARE PLURALISTIC.
• 03:05 I FELT THAT HE BELONGS TO MY HERITAGE, TO MY PAST.
• 03:08 WE ARE THE MOST ANCIENT CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY.
• 03:12 HE WAS A PALESTINIAN, HE WAS A JEW AND HE BECAME A CHRISTIAN.
• 03:17 WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE ISSUE OF HANAN ASHRAWI'S CHRISTIAN TESTIMONY A LITTLE BIT.
• 03:22 I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, PARTICULARLY FOR AMERICAN AUDIENCES
• 03:27 THAT WHEN PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST TALK ABOUT THEMSELVES AS BEING CHRISTIAN,
• 03:32 OFTEN WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A FORM OF CULTURAL CHRISTIANITY
• 03:36 RATHER THAN A DEEP-SEEDED BELIEF OF THE HEART.
• 03:41 I BELIEVE THAT'S WHERE HANAN ASHRAWI IS COMING FROM IN DEFINING HERSELF AS A CHRISTIAN-ARAB.
• 03:48 SHE TALKS ABOUT JESUS CHRIST BEING A PALESTINIAN.
• 03:53 HER RATIONALE FOR THAT IS THAT HE WAS BORN IN PALESTINE.
• 03:56 WELL, THAT'S KIND OF LUDICROUS BECAUSE THE FIRST TIME THE TERM PALESTINE IS USED IS IN 70 A.D.
• 04:04 WHEN THE ROMANS RENAMED ISRAEL PALESTINE AS A WAY OF ADDING INSULT TO INJURY
• 04:11 AFTER THEY DESTROYED THE TEMPLE AND COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST THE JEWS.
• 04:16 THE IDEA THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS A PALESTINIAN IS VERY MUCH OF A STRETCH.
• 04:23 WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, THIS IS ALMOST A FANTASY,
• 04:26 BUT LET'S SAY A TWO-NATION SOLUTION IS FORMED OR SOMETHING LIKE IT,
• 04:30 BUT PALESTINIANS HAVE A NATION TO CONTROL AND SINCE THEY'RE LARGELY MUSLIM,
• 04:36 THEY BEGIN TO ACT LIKE A MUSLIM GOVERNMENT?
• 04:40 THEY TELL YOU TO COVER YOUR HAIR AND THIS SORT OF THING?
• 04:43 HISTORICALLY, PALESTINE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST TOLERANT, OPEN,
• 04:47 LIBERAL AND PLURALISTIC SOCIETIES IN THE ARAB WORLD, IN THE REGION.
• 04:52 TOLERANT! OPEN! I WONDER HOW SHE WOULD CLASSIFY THE 6 DAY WAR. WAS THAT TOLERANT AND OPEN?
• 05:02 HOW ABOUT YOM KIPPUR?
• 05:04 WE HEAR IN OUR CULTURE TODAY, ESPECIALLY IN AMERICA IN THIS WINTER,
• 05:07 THAT WE SHOULD NOT BOMB DURING RAMADAN, THAT WE SHOULD NOT BOMB DURING ID AL-FITR.
• 05:12 WE SHOULD NOT BOMB DURING THE HOLY DAYS OF MUSLIMS BECAUSE THIS WOULD OFFEND THEM WORLDWIDE.
• 05:16 HOW OFFENSIVE WAS IT FOR THEM TO PICK THE HIGH HOLY DAY,
• 05:19 THE DAY OF ATONEMENT, FOR THEM TO BOMB ISRAEL?
• 05:25 HANAN ASHRAWI SAYS THAT PALESTINE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST OPEN, LIBERAL,
• 05:30 PLURALISTIC AND TOLERANT SOCIETIES IN THE REGION.
• 05:33 WELL I DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME FRAME HANAN ASHRAWI IS TALKING ABOUT.
• 05:37 FIRST OF ALL THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A PALESTINIAN STATE.
• 05:40 THERE'S NEVER BEEN A SOCIETY, A SELF-GOVERNING ENTITY
• 05:44 KNOWN AS PALESTINE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.
• 05:48 SO YOU FIRST OF ALL HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHAT PALESTINE IS HANAN ASHRAWI TALKING ABOUT WHEN SHE DEFINES IT THAT WAY?
• 05:55 IF YOU WANT TO USE LIBERAL, PLURALISTIC, TOLERANT AND OPEN SOCIETIES
• 05:59 AS THE STANDARD FOR THE MIDDLE EAST, THERE IS ONLY ONE. IT'S THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
• 06:05 IT'S THE ONLY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY IN THE REGION OUT OF 23 ARAB AND MUSLIM STATES,
• 06:13 ALL VARYING FORMS OF TOTALITARIAN POLICE STATES
• 06:16 AND ISRAEL IS THE ONLY LITTLE TINY BASTION OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM IN THE REGION.
• 06:23 ISLAM HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE MOST INCLUSIVE RELIGION BECAUSE IT DIDN'T COME TO DENY PREVIOUS RELIGIONS.
• 06:28 IT CAME TO AFFIRM THE TWO PREVIOUS RELIGIONS.
• 06:33 MY PROBLEM IS WITH THOSE IN ALL RELIGIONS, WHETHER ISLAM, CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM,
• 06:39 WHO GIVE THEMSELVES LICENSE TO INTERPRET IN THE MOST RIGID, DOGMATIC MANNER HOLY TEXT
• 06:47 AND TO USE THEM TO PUNISH, TO POUND, TO BASH THE OTHER AND TO NEGATE AND TO DENY THE OTHER.
• 06:53 THAT IS THEIR PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE THOSE ELEMENTS IN ALL 3 RELIGIONS.
• 06:58 I BELIEVE FUNDAMENTALISM IN CHRISTIANITY IS JUST AS DANGEROUS, IF NOT MORE SO,
• 07:02 THAN IT IS IN ISLAM, THAN IT IS IN JUDAISM.
• 07:05 WELL, I THINK AMERICANS WOULD SAY RIGHT THERE, BUT WAIT A MINUTE,
• 07:09 FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS HAVE NOT ATTACKED ANYONE OR BROKEN DOWN A WORLD TRADE CENTER.
• 07:15 WELL, IT FINDS MANY DIFFERENT EXPRESSIONS.
• 07:18 FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANS ALSO NEGATE THE VALIDITY AND LEGITIMACY OF THE OTHER, WHICH IS VERY UNCHRISTIAN.
• 07:24 BECAUSE CHRISTIANITY IS A VERY TOLERANT--
• 07:26 AND THEN FUNDAMENTALISTS TELL ME I HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXIST AS A PALESTINIAN
• 07:32 REGARDLESS OF MY RELIGION AND INSIST ON NEGATING MY VERY RIGHTS, WHICH IS WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW.
• 07:39 THEY'RE TELLING ME THAT I SHOULD ABANDON MY LAND, MY HISTORY, MY CULTURE, MY SECURITY,
• 07:43 MY LIFE FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.
• 07:47 THIS, TO ME, IS THE MOST DOGMATIC AND RIGID AND UNCHRISTIAN AND INHUMAN WAY.
• 07:54 WHAT I FIND FASCINATING IS EVERY TIME WE HAVE A RELEASED TAPE BY OSAMA BIN MOHAMMED BIN LADEN,
• 07:59 OR BY MULLAH OMAR, THE FIRST GROUP TO WHICH THEY SPEAK IS NOT THE INFIDEL COMMUNITY.
• 08:06 IT'S NOT THE PEOPLE OF THE GREAT SHATAN.
• 08:08 IT IS, IN FACT, SPEAKING TO OTHER MUSLIMS.
• 08:11 WHEN THEY SAY, YOU HAVE BEEN OBLIGED; YOU HAVE BEEN FARDIL, OBLIGED TO HOLY WAR.
• 08:17 IN OTHER WORDS, THEY DON'T SEE THEMSELVES AS FUNDAMENTALISTS. THEY ARE PURISTS.
• 08:21 THEY BELIEVE THE KORAN. THEY BELIEVE THE HADITH.
• 08:24 THEY BELIEVE THAT ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN OBLIGED TO HOLY WAR, YOU MUST FIGHT HOLY WAR.
• 08:29 THEY ARE NOT FUNDAMENTALISTS. INSTEAD, THEY VIEW THESE MUSLIMS AS BAD MUSLIMS.
• 08:36 IF A STATE IS ESTABLISHED, DO YOU SUPPOSE HAMAS AND OTHER MILITANT GROUPS WILL STOP THE RESISTANCE?
• 08:44 OH, YES THEY WILL, OF COURSE.
• 08:47 YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISLAMIC JIHAD AS PALESTINIANS ORGANIZATIONS
• 08:54 AS OPPOSED TO OTHER PAN-ISLAMIC ORGANIZATIONS, IS THAT THESE ARE LINKED TO A CERTAIN NATIONAL STRUGGLE.
• 09:00 HAMAS AND JIHAD, THEY'RE PART OF A STRUGGLE AGAINST THE OCCUPATION.
• 09:05 IF YOU REMOVE THE OCCUPATION, YOU DISARM AND DIFFUSE--
• 09:09 THEY DO NOT HAVE A GLOBAL MESSAGE. THEY ARE NOT OUT THERE.
• 09:14 THEY'VE NEVER CARRIED OUT ACTIONS OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE.
• 09:16 THEY'VE NEVER BEEN OUT THERE TRYING TO EITHER PROSELYTIZE
• 09:19 OR KILL PEOPLE OR IMPOSE A PAN-ISLAMIC AGENDA. THAT'S ONE.
• 09:23 TWO, I THINK THAT WE HAVE SUFFICIENT DEMOCRATIC FORCES IN PALESTINE
• 09:28 IN ORDER TO WEAKEN EXTREMISM BY DEMOCRATIC MEANS.
• 09:33 THIS IS HOW WE SHOULD DEAL WITH IT.
• 09:36 THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS ARE COMMITTED TO A 2-STATE SOLUTION.
• 09:41 THEY'RE COMMITTED TO ACCEPTING THE OTHER.
• 09:44 THEY'RE COMMITTED TO THIS INCLUSIVE APPROACH.
• 09:47 THEY DON'T WANT TO DESTROY THE STATE OF ISRAEL OR REPLACE THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
• 09:53 HANAN ASHRAWI SUGGESTS THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE SUPPORT A 2-STATE SOLUTION.
• 10:00 IN OTHER WORDS, THE IDEA OF A SEPARATE PALESTINIAN STATE,
• 10:03 A SEPARATE ISRAELI STATE LIVING SIDE BY SIDE IN PEACE AND HARMONY.
• 10:08 I HAVE CAREFULLY LOOKED AT EVERY PUBLIC OPINION SURVEY DONE OF ARABS IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD
• 10:14 AND I SEE NO EVIDENCE TO BACK THAT UP.
• 10:17 I WISH IT WERE SO. I WISH IT WERE SO.
• 10:20 BUT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS FROM MY OWN PERSONAL ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE,
• 10:26 THE INTERVIEWS I'VE CONDUCTED ON THE GROUND THERE, I SEE NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT.
• 10:31 IT'S WISHFUL THINKING ON HER PART AT BEST.
• 10:46 I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO ZOLA FOR 5 OR 6 YEARS.
• 10:49 WHEN MY MOTHER CALLED AND SAID, "I'M PLANNING A TRIP TO ISRAEL. WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO?"
• 10:53 I DIDN'T HESITATE.I SAID, "ABSOLUTELY."
• 10:55 SHE SAID,"DO YOU KNOW ANYWHERE OR HOW TO GET THERE?"
• 10:57 I SAID, "ABSOLUTELY, LET ME GIVE ZOLA A CALL."
• 10:59 THIS IS THE MOST SPECIAL PLACE IN THE WORLD AND THIS IS THE PLACE WE WANTED TO BE.
• 11:04 WE CAN'T IMAGINE THAT WE'RE HERE.
• 11:06 IT'S, YOU KNOW, WE JUST CAN'T IMAGINE WE'RE HERE.
• 11:15 WELL, OUR TOURS OF THE HOLY LAND CONTINUE AS USUAL. THEY'RE SOME TENSION OVER THERE.
• 11:20 IT'S NOT AS DANGEROUS AS STAYING HOME AND I'VE SPECIFIED THAT MANY TIMES.
• 11:25 ON OUR LAST TOUR WE HAD THIS OPPORTUNITY, IF YOU JUST TUNED IN,
• 11:29 TO GO TO RAMALLAH AND TALK WITH DR. HANAN ASHRAWI,
• 11:33 ONE OF THE SPOKESPERSONS FOR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.
• 11:37 YOU'VE SEEN HER ON THE NEWS I'M SURE
• 11:39 AND WE TOOK THAT FOOTAGE TO ARAB-CHRISTIAN EXPERTS OF OUR OWN ACQUAINTANCE,
• 11:44 DR. ERGUN CANER AND JOSEPH FARAH AND THEY COMMENTED ON WHAT SHE SAID.
• 11:50 I STEPPED OUT OF IT, I'M THE NEUTRAL OBSERVER.
• 11:53 I GOT THE TESTIMONY FROM HER AND I TOOK IT TO THEM IS ALL AND HERE IS HOW IT CONTINUED.
• 12:01 IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE IN LIGHT OF, PERHAPS HE'S OVERLY RADICAL,
• 12:04 BUT A HAMAS LEADER SAID THAT THIS RESISTANCE, THIS MORE THAN RESISTANCE,
• 12:10 THIS MILITANCY WILL CONTINUE UNTIL ALL OF THE JEWS LEAVE THE LAND OF PALESTINE.
• 12:14 IT'S NOT A 2-STATE SOLUTION.
• 12:16 NO, THE MAJORITY OF THE PALESTINIANS ACCEPT THE 2-STATE SOLUTION.
• 12:21 LET ME PRESENT YOU WITH A HYPOTHESIS.
• 12:23 LET'S SAY THAT A GROUP IN IDAHO OR IOWA, OR SOME SMALL STATE SETS UP A COMPOUND,
• 12:29 FENCES IT IN AND CLAIMS IT TO BE THE NATION OF THIS COMPOUND.
• 12:34 TO PROVE THEIR POINT, THEY STOP PAYING TAXES.
• 12:38 THEY SET UP THEIR OWN BANKS. THEY SET UP THEIR OWN SYSTEMS.
• 12:40 TO FURTHER PROVE THEIR POINT, WHEN THE POLICE IN THAT CITY
• 12:43 OR NEARBY THAT COMPOUND COME BY THEY SHOOT THEM.
• 12:47 THEY BEGIN TO GO INTO THE NEIGHBORING CITIES AND THEY BOMB PEOPLE.
• 12:52 SOME OF THEM EVEN STRAP BOMBS TO THEMSELVES, WALK INTO THE STORES
• 12:56 AND INTO THE RESTAURANTS AND STRAP BOMBS TO THEMSELVES.
• 12:59 THEY MAKE THE POINT AND THEY SAY, WE WILL NOT STOP THIS
• 13:01 UNTIL YOU RECOGNIZE OUR COMPOUND AS A SEPARATE, SOVEREIGN NATION.
• 13:07 WHAT WOULD WE DO AS AMERICANS? WHAT WOULD OUR COUNTRY DO?
• 13:11 THAT IS WHAT WE ARE ASKING ISRAEL TO DO.
• 13:15 WE ARE ASKING TERRORISTS TO SET UP YOUR OWN COUNTRY.
• 13:19 WE ARE ALLOWING THEM TO BOMB ISRAEL, TO JUST ABSOLUTELY OBLITERATE INNOCENT CIVILIANS
• 13:25 AND WE ASK THEM TO THINK THAT THESE ARE ACTS OF WAR, NOT TERRORISM.
• 13:30 THEN, WE ARE ASKING ISRAEL TO RECOGNIZE THEM AS A STATE, TO BENEFIT TERRORISM.
• 13:37 WHY WOULD WE NOT DO THAT IN AMERICA?
• 13:39 OBVIOUSLY TWO REASONS COME TO MIND.
• 13:41 ONE, THAT'S NOT THE WAY A SOVEREIGN NATION OPERATES.
• 13:44 SECONDLY, IT REWARDS TERRORISM.
• 13:48 WOULD WE ALWAYS SUSPECT THAT THEY MAY DO MORE TO GET MORE LAND?OF COURSE.
• 13:53 SO SHOULD ISRAEL.
• 13:54 THIS IS A TIME FOR CHRISTIANS AND EVANGELICALS,
• 13:57 FOR JEWS TO UNITE TOGETHER AND BAND TOGETHER. WE CANNOT REWARD TERRORISM.
• 14:01 WE CANNOT REWARD ACTS OF TERRORISM ANYMORE ON OUR LAND AS WE WOULD ASK ISRAEL TO DO ON ITS
• 14:09 I CAN ALMOST HEAR AMERICAN'S SAYING, BUT WAIT, DR. ASHRAWI, THERE ARE PEOPLE--
• 14:13 A HUNDRED PLACES IN THE WORLD ARE OCCUPIED.
• 14:16 THEY DON'T ACTUALLY KILL THE OCCUPANTS.
• 14:18 THERE IS NO OTHER OCCUPIER.
• 14:21 HOW ABOUT IF YOU LIVED IN AMERICA.
• 14:23 WE HAVE NATIVE AMERICANS ON RESERVATIONS.
• 14:25 THEIR NATIVES TO THE LAND, YET THEY'RE OCCUPIED TOTALLY.
• 14:30 THEY DON'T COME OUT AND KILL PEOPLE.
• 14:32 THAT SITUATION, YES.
• 14:34 THAT SITUATION WAS RESOLVED IN A WAY WHICH WAS ENTIRELY UNFAIR TO THE INDIGENOUS AMERICANS.
• 14:39 IT'S NOT IN RECENT HISTORY AND IT HASN'T BEEN VIEWED AS AN OCCUPATION OR A STRUGGLE FOR INDEPENDENCE.
• 14:48 THE INDIAN NATIONS ARE SEEKING THE RECOGNITION OF THEIR OWN IDENTITY AND NATIONHOOD WITHIN THE LARGER AMERICA.
• 14:57 NO, HERE WE ARE SEEKING OUR FREEDOM BECAUSE WE ARE UNDER MILITARY OCCUPATION.
• 15:02 ONE OF THE TERMS THAT DEFINES THE DEBATE FOR PALESTINIAN ARABS IS THIS WORD - OCCUPATION.
• 15:09 WE HEAR IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN. WE'VE HEARD HANAN ASHRAWI USE IT AGAIN.
• 15:13 WE SAY THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE COUNTRY OCCUPIED IN THE MIDDLE EAST
• 15:17 AND IT'S THE COUNTRY OF LEBANON WHICH IS OCCUPIED BY SYRIA.
• 15:21 THERE IS A FORM OF OCCUPATION IN PALESTINE TODAY
• 15:26 AND IT'S THE OCCUPATION THAT YASSER ARAFAT IS EMPLOYING OVER THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
• 15:32 IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND SO FORTH.
• 15:34 ALL OF THAT LAND WAS GIVEN TO THE JEWS UNDER THE ORIGINAL U.N. MANDATE.
• 15:40 THERE IS ANOTHER PALESTINIAN COUNTRY TODAY KNOWN AS JORDAN.
• 15:45 IT'S ALWAYS BEEN PREDOMINATELY PALESTINIAN POPULATION.
• 15:48 THAT REALLY OCCUPIES MOST OF THE TERRITORY THAT WAS GRANTED TO THE ARABS UNDER THE ORIGINAL U.N. MANDATE.
• 15:59 THIS WHOLE SILLY NOTION OF OCCUPATION HAS TO BE TURNED AROUND AND STOOD ON ITS HEAD.
• 16:05 ISRAEL IS NOT THE OCCUPIER.
• 16:08 IN ALL FAIRNESS, I INTERVIEW PEOPLE OF ALL SIDES IN QUESTIONS.
• 16:13 IF I TALK TO AN AVERAGE MEMBER OF THE ISRAELI PARLIAMENT, THE KNESSET,
• 16:19 I THINK HE WOULD PROBABLY SAY, LOOK, WE WERE HERE A LONG TIME AGO.
• 16:24 PALESTINIANS ARE VARIOUS ARABS FROM VARIOUS STATES. WE MEAN THEM NO HARM.
• 16:28 WE'VE BROUGHT THE 20TH CENTURY TO THEM AND SO FORTH,
• 16:32 BUT THEY JUST WON'T COOPERATE AND WON'T LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY
• 16:36 AND WE DON'T KNOW WHICH WAY TO TURN.
• 16:38 THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT VIEW OF HISTORY.
• 16:41 ASK THE ISRAELIS YOU TALK TO, WHEN DID THEY COME TO PALESTINE. WHEN?
• 16:46 THOSE WHO WERE ORIGINALLY PALESTINIANS ARE A MINORITY WITHIN ISRAEL.
• 16:50 MOST OF THEM CAME FROM BROOKLYN, FROM MOSCOW, FROM--
• 16:54 THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAME WITH THEIR DIFFERENT CULTURES AND LANGUAGES AND SO ON
• 16:59 AND RELIGION BECAME TRANSFORMED INTO A POLITICAL INSTRUMENT IN ORDER TO TAKE OVER A LAND
• 17:05 IN WHICH THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN LIVING CONTINUOUSLY FOR CENTURIES.
• 17:10 WE'VE BEEN HERE FOR CENTURIES.
• 17:12 WE DIDN'T EMERGE ONLY IN RESPONSE TO THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
• 17:18 ASHRAWI SAYS THAT WE, MEANING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE,
• 17:22 DIDN'T JUST COME ABOUT IN RESPONSE TO THE CREATION TO THE STATE OF ISRAEL - ONLY IN RESPONSE.
• 17:28 I THINK THERE'S SOME CANDOR THERE THAT I'D LIKE TO SEE FROM MORE OF THE PALESTINIAN SPOKESMEN.
• 17:34 INDEED, WHAT'S SHE'S ACKNOWLEDGING
• 17:35 IS THE FACT THAT THERE'S BEEN THIS TREMENDOUS INFLUX OF ARAB POPULATION
• 17:40 INTO THE REGION SINCE THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
• 17:44 IN FACT, AS I MENTION EARLIER, THAT INFLUX BEGAN BACK AS EARLY AS 1900
• 17:51 WHEN THE HIGHER LEVELS OF JEWISH IMMIGRATION BEGAN.
• 17:56 THAT IS A REALITY. THAT'S A REALITY THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH.
• 18:01 ONCE AGAIN WE SEE THAT THE FOLKS THAT WE REFER TO AS PALESTINIANS ARE ACTUALLY COMING FROM 22 ARAB STATES.
• 18:10 THEY'RE COMING FROM NON-ARAB STATES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.
• 18:14 THEY'RE MUSLIMS FROM PAKISTAN. THEY'RE MUSLIMS FROM INDONESIA.
• 18:18 THEY'RE MUSLIMS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
• 18:20 TODAY WE CALL THEM PALESTINIANS AND WE'RE DISCUSSING GIVING THEM RIGHTS TO A NATIONAL HOMELAND.
• 18:27 IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
• 18:30 NOW ISRAELI POLITICS IS CHANGING, TOO, AS WE SPEAK.
• 18:33 THIS WEEK NOT ONLY DID ARAFAT APPOINT NEW CABINET MEMBERS,
• 18:39 BUT HALF OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WALKED OUT. >>NOT HALF, BUT A MAJOR PORTION.
• 18:44 NOT ONLY IS THERE CHANGES IN THE PALESTINIAN CABINET AT THIS TIME,
• 18:47 BUT IN THE ISRAELI KNESSET THERE'S A SEA CHANGE.
• 18:51 A WHOLE LABOR PARTY WALKED OUT OF THE GOVERNMENT.
• 18:53 IT'S A MINORITY OF THE GOVERNMENT, BUT STILL THEY LEFT.
• 18:56 THIS LEAVES A POSSIBILITY OF NEW ELECTIONS COMING UP.
• 19:01 IT'S QUITE A SHAKE UP. IT BRINGS PERSONALITIES OUT OF THE CLOSET, SO TO SPEAK.
• 19:06 JUST TO ASK, OF COURSE YOU HAVE SHARON IS IN POWER AND HE WANTS TO REMAIN IN POWER.
• 19:11 YOU HAVE NETANYAHU BEING SUGGESTED.
• 19:14 DO YOU HAVE ANY PREFERENCE AMONG THESE GENTLEMEN?
• 19:15 IT IS THE LESSER OF 2 EVILS, HUH?
• 19:20 I THINK THEY ALL BELONG TO ONE CAMP.
• 19:22 THEY MAY HAVE INTERNAL, DOMESTIC DIFFERENCES MOTIVATED BY THEIR OWN AMBITION.
• 19:27 WHO WANTS TO OUTFLANK WHOM FROM THE RIGHT?
• 19:30 BUT MOST BELONG TO THE MOST EXTREME ZIONIST TRADITION,
• 19:33 WHICH IS BASED ON THE NEGATION OF THE OTHER,
• 19:35 WHICH IS BASED ON THE EXTENSION OF THE MENTALITY OF OCCUPATION
• 19:39 THINKING THAT YOU CAN REALLY DEFEAT A NATION
• 19:43 BENT ON GETTING ITS INDEPENDENCE AND FREEDOM AND DIGNITY ON ITS OWN LAND.
• 19:48 THEY BOTH ADOPT MILITARY MEANS AND VIOLENCE FOR MEANS OF SUBDUING A NATION.
• 19:54 TO ME, THERE IS DANGER TO ISRAEL AND TO PALESTINE IN HAVING SUCH AN EXTREMIST GOVERNMENT.
• 20:00 YOU ALSO FORGOT ONE INGREDIENT.
• 20:02 YOU FORGOT MOFAZ, WHO IS KNOWN FOR HIS RUTHLESSNESS, >>THE NEW DEFENSE MINISTRY,
• 20:09 SHAUL MOFAZ AND OF COURSE, THEY ARE COURTING LIEBERMAN WHO JUST CAME FROM THE EX-SOVIET UNION,
• 20:16 WHO CLAIMS THAT GOD GAVE HIM ALL THIS LAND, THEREFORE HE HAS TO CARRY OUT ETHNIC CLEANSING
• 20:22 AND KICK OUT ALL THE PALESTINIANS AND BOMB EGYPT AND BOMB IRAN.
• 20:27 SO YOU HAVE THE MOST IRRESPONSIBLE,
• 20:29 YOU HAVE A VERY DANGEROUS COMBINATION OF EXTREMISM.
• 20:33 NOT THAT THE LABOR PARTY MADE A LOT OF DIFFERENCE IN THAT CABINET.
• 20:38 WAIT A MINUTE. BARAK WAS A PRIME MINISTER OF THE LABOR PARTY.
• 20:42 EVERY AMERICAN WOULD LIKE A CLEAR ANSWER TO WHY,
• 20:46 WHEN HE OFFERED A VIABLE PALESTINIAN STATE DIDN'T WASHINGTON--
• 20:51 ARAFAT DIDN'T SAY, THIS IS WHAT WE WANT. WE'LL TAKE IT.
• 20:54 I'M GLAD YOU RAISED THIS QUESTION BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY MYTHS AND DISTORTIONS.
• 20:59 AMERICAN VIEWERS HAVE ACCEPTED A CERTAIN VERSION THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY.
• 21:05 IN CAMP DAVID THERE WAS NO, AS YOU SAY, GENEROUS OFFER.
• 21:10 THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS. THERE WERE INITIAL IDEAS.
• 21:13 THERE WAS NOTHING IN WRITING. THERE WERE NO AGREEMENTS.
• 21:15 THERE WERE JUST IDEAS THAT KEPT CHANGING EVERY DAY SAYING,
• 21:19 HOW MUCH LAND CAN BARAK TAKE AWAY FROM THE 22 PERCENT,
• 21:24 WHICH IS THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, TO MAINTAIN MORE SETTLEMENTS.
• 21:27 HOW MUCH LAND CAN HE TAKE THAT WOULD LEAVE THE PALESTINIAN STATE
• 21:31 TERRITORIALLY NON-CONTINUANT AND, THEREFORE, NOT VIABLE.
• 21:35 HE WANTED TO ANNEX AREAS WITHIN JERUSALEM, AROUND JERUSALEM. HE FRAGMENTED THE WEST BANK.
• 21:41 HE WANTED US TO RELINQUISH THE RIGHT OF RETURN FOR ALL REFUGEES JUST LIKE THAT.
• 21:46 THEN TO SAY THIS IS THE END OF THE CONFLICT, WE SAID, OK.
• 21:49 THESE ARE NOT ISSUES ON WHICH WE CAN COME TO AN AGREEMENT.
• 21:54 THESE ARE IDEAS THAT NEED FURTHER DEVELOPMENT.
• 21:57 THEY WILL NOT FORM A SOLUTION BECAUSE THE ESSENTIAL INGREDIENT OF JUSTICE IS MISSING.
• 22:03 LET'S EXPLORE THEM FURTHER. THERE WAS NO REJECTION AND THERE WAS NO OFFER.
• 22:10 THE FUNDAMENTAL POINT THAT DR. LEVITT MAKES HERE,
• 22:13 NUMBER ONE, IT MUST BE STATED THERE WAS AN OFFER MADE.
• 22:17 IT MUST BE STATED THAT ARAFAT DID, IN FACT, WALK AWAY.
• 22:21 HE WOULD NOT SIGN AN ACCORD AND HE WOULD NOT SIGN AN AGREEMENT.
• 22:24 HE HAS A VESTED INTEREST IN REVOLUTION, BUT PERHAPS NOT AS MUCH IN PEACE.
• 22:30 HE WALKED AWAY.
• 22:35 ASHRAWI SAYS THAT DURING THE BARAK ADMINISTRATION AND DURING THOSE NEGOTIATIONS
• 22:40 THERE WAS NO REJECTION OF A PEACE PLAN.
• 22:45 SHE SUGGESTS THERE WAS NO PEACE PLAN AT ALL,
• 22:48 THAT THERE WAS NOTHING REALLY CONCRETE PUT ON THE TABLE.
• 22:51 SO THERE WAS NOTHING TO REJECT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
• 22:53 AS I UNDERSTAND IT, SHE WAS NOT A PART OF THOSE NEGOTIATIONS.
• 22:57 SHE WAS NOT A PART OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITIES NEGOTIATING TEAM.
• 23:01 SO HER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING WOULD BE BASED ON THE SAME KIND OF FACTS
• 23:06 THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO ALL OF US PEOPLE WHO READ NEWSPAPERS AND SO FORTH.
• 23:10 PEOPLE WHO DO READ NEWSPAPERS AND WHO ARE INFORMED ABOUT THOSE NEGOTIATIONS
• 23:16 UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE INDEED VERY, VERY CONCRETE PROPOSALS,
• 23:21 UNBELIEVABLE CONCESSIONS THAT WERE MADE BY ISRAELIS, BY THE ISRAELI LEADERSHIP.
• 23:27 IN FACT, THE ISRAELI POPULATION WAS STUNNED THAT EVERYTHING WAS PUT ON THE TABLE,
• 23:33 INCLUDING JERUSALEM, WAS PUT ON THE TABLE.
• 23:36 THE TEMPLE MOUNT WAS PUT ON THE TABLE.
• 23:40 THAT IS INDEED WHY BARAK WAS ULTIMATELY REJECTED BECAUSE THIS PEACE PLAN FAILED.
• 23:45 THE ISRAELI POPULATION LOOKED AT THAT AND SAID THERE IS NO WAY WE COULD EVERY MAKE THESE FOLKS,
• 23:51 THE PALESTINIANS, HAPPY IF THEY REJECTED THESE KINDS OF CONCESSIONS.
• 23:58 THAT'S THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT.
• 24:01 WE GAVE DR. ASHRAWI AN OPEN MIC AS THEY CALL IT IN THE BUSINESS.
• 24:05 SHE WAS ALLOWED TO TALK AT LENGTH AS SHE PLEASED.
• 24:08 WE DIDN'T TIME IT OR SAY IT WAS A 15 MINUTE INTERVIEW.
• 24:11 WE JUST LET HER GO AHEAD AND TELL US WHAT SHE WANTED TO TELL US.
• 24:15 WE THEN TOOK THE TAPE TO OUR EXPERTS, DR. CANER AND JOSEPH FARAH,
• 24:20 ARAB-CHRISTIANS IN AMERICA AND THEY COMMENTED ON WHAT SHE SAID.
• 24:23 YOU BE THE JUDGE. I'M IN THE MIDDLE.
• 24:27 I GOT THE INTERVIEW, TRANSFERRED THE TAPE AND THAT'S ALL.
• 24:31 THERE WILL COME A TIME IN THE FUTURE WHEN WE WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THESE THINGS.
• 24:40 THE KINGDOM TO COME WILL BE IN THE HOLY LAND.
• 24:43 IT WILL BE IN JERUSALEM AND ALSO IN RAMALLAH.
• 24:46 THERE WILL BE PEACE AS THE LORD SAYS IN ISAIAH 11:16
• 25:00 ISAIAH 19 ALSO DESCRIBES THIS HIGHWAY THAT RUNS FROM ARAB NATION TO ARAB NATION,
• 25:06 RIGHT THROUGH ISRAEL; FROM ASSYRIA, THROUGH ISRAEL,
• 25:09 TO EGYPT AND BACK, THEREFORE DESCRIBING PEACE.
• 25:13 WE CROSSED A BORDER, SO VERY TREACHEROUS AND DANGEROUS JUST TO MAKE THIS PROGRAM.
• 25:18 IN THAT DAY, WE COULD GO ACROSS NATIONAL BORDERS, NEVER MIND THE BORDER BETWEEN JERUSALEM AND RAMALLAH.
• 25:25 AT THAT TIME WE HAVE THE WONDERFUL VERSE,
• 25:39 LET ME TEACH YOU SOMETHING.
• 25:41 IN HEBREW, THE WORD SALVATION IS YESHUA. IT'S JESUS' NAME.
• 25:47 IT'S WHAT HE WAS CALLED IN ISRAEL - YESHUA.
• 25:52 THE VERSE THAT SAYS MARY CALLED HIS NAME JESUS, BECAUSE HE BROUGHT HIS PEOPLE SALVATION
• 25:57 DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE UNLESS YOU USE HIS REAL NAME - YESHUA,
• 26:03 THEN YOU WOULD SAY, MARY CALLED HIS NAME YESHUA, SALVATION,
• 26:07 BECAUSE HE WILL BRING HIS PEOPLE SALVATION. NOW IT MAKES SENSE.
• 26:11 WHEN IT SAYS THAT JEHOVAH ALSO IS BECOME MY SALVATION,
• 26:15 THE VERSE TEACHES THAT JEHOVAH BECOMES JESUS AND COMES TO THE EARTH AND BRINGS YESHUA - SALVATION TO US.
• 26:25 UNTIL THAT DAY COMES, HOWEVER, RAMALLAH AND JERUSALEM ARE AWFULLY CLOSE TOGETHER.
• 26:31 AS YOU CAN TELL FROM THE TESTIMONY, THEY'RE STILL QUITE A BIT OF ARGUMENT GOING ON.
• 26:37 WHEN I WENT TO RAMALLAH I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT WE LEFT OUR HOTEL
• 26:41 AND IN 15 OR 20 MINUTES WE'RE AT THIS CHECKPOINT THAT LOOKED LIKE THE BERLIN WALL
• 26:46 FOR ALL THE SOLDIERS AND CONFUSION AND PEOPLE RUNNING HERE AND THERE,
• 26:52 A BOMBED OUT CAR AND ALL THE REST OF IT.
• 26:57 I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT THEY'RE SO CLOSE TOGETHER.
• 27:00 WHEN YOU THINK OF THESE EVENTS IN RAMALLAH, IT IS RIGHT ON THE BORDER OF JERUSALEM.
• 27:06 AS YOU DO THAT, SHA'ALU SHALOM YERUSHALAYIM, PRAY FOR THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM.